This week's
Marketplace of Ideas, a
conversation about the arrow of time
with theoretical physicist Sean Carroll, marks the program's 100th
interview. Despite that it doesn't quite translate to my having done
exactly
100 interviews — some recordings never made the air, and I've
interviewed a bunch for other fora — ostensibly nice, round numbers
give me pause for reflection. What, after One Hundred Whole Interviews,
have I learned about one of my primary crafts?
The
lessons I can explain follow. I have no reason to believe they apply
only to those conducting weekly 55-minute-ish conversations on public
radio. You might well adapt them profitably to other journalistic
situations, documentary filmmaking (another interest of mine),
interviews of the to-get-a-real-job variety, or even regular old casual
interpersonal exchanges. In fact, the more alien the domain to which
you bring them, the happier I'll be. Go on, leave a comment about it.
Naturally, I could draw the exact opposite conclusions from all these by interview number 200, but here goes anyway:
Don't write questions.
If conventional journalism has taught me anything — and it hasn't —
it's to lead counterintuitive, so here's your counterintuition. I, as
did every super-novice interviewer except maybe Michael Silverblatt,
started out by scripting elaborate sheets of questions ahead of time.
This is death. Work from a question sheet, and you kill any chance of
organic exchange, of real, vital intellectual back-and-forth. You just
tick off the boxes and grind awkwardly forth. Which leads me right into
my next point, which should probably be a subpoint of this one...
Interviews are not conversations — conversations are objectively better.
As Jack Paar told Dick Cavett, "Kid, don’t do interviews. That’s
clipboards, and David Frost, and what’s your pet peeve and favorite
movie. Make it a conversation." I once thought of this as a dichotomy
between two equal and opposite hosting strategies. In the "facilitated
speech," the host's goal is simply to elicit maximally interesting and
detailed responses from the guest, minimizing their own presence. In
the "conversation," the host both contributes and seeks contribution,
potentially even mirroring the guest's role.
I
still regard those strategies as opposite, but they sure ain't equal.
Perhaps this is an undiplomatic claim to make, but conversations are
just
better, always and absolutely, than formal,
traditionally-conceived interviews. Those strike me as nothing more
than hokey by-products of such journalistic rigidities as twitch time
limits and miniscule word counts. Planned, borderline-rehearsed
simulacra of conversations aren't conversations at all. They can't
wander into the unexpected, exciting places genuine conversations do,
nor can they hope to arrive at the the surprising, fascinating
conclusions genuine conversations do.
We know from everyday
experience that doing conversation means sometimes leading, and
sometimes being led. Hence the need, even in broadcast situations, to
be prepared to...
Follow your guest. Because some
broadcasters don't quite grok this, I'm forced to enshrine it as a
separate point. This isn't to say that you should follow your guest
all
the time — certainly you'll want to show the way into promising
intellectual territory now and then — but if he seems interested in and
enthusiastic about discussing a certain subject, fall in line. It
doesn't matter if you hadn't intended to talk about it. It doesn't
matter if it doesn't keep with the interview's "theme." It doesn't
matter if you don't know anything about it. (After all, you can learn
from the guest, then and there.) Scrap your plan and follow.
Everything
is interesting, properly approached, properly thought about, properly
framed, properly discussed. I don't care if your guest wants to talk
about their puppy. If they're that consumed with the puppy, there's
something interesting about the puppy. It's not your job to steer him
away from the puppy; it's your job to find the best angle from which to
ask about the puppy, to...
Follow up. I don't remember
where I first heard this, but it's become an old interviewer's saw: if
a guest says, "And then I killed my entire family and buried them in
the back yard," your next question should not be, "So where did you go
to high school?" Ideally, everything you ask should flow smoothly from
what the guest just said. I realize this isn't always easy; sometimes
you've just got to jump the tracks. But if the subject has to change,
far better to run with something your guest happened to bring up than
to throw the switch yourself.
As elementary-school as this
sounds, don't forget to ask your guest for real-world examples. I
myself could use some improvement here; I've been complacent about
letting abstractions and generalizations slide. It can feel a tad harsh
to prod someone with the kind of responses that draw out examples —
"Like what?", "Such as?" — and it's especially difficult for someone
like me, who hates putting people on the spot, but the concrete
provides much richer conversational material.
There's one
follow-up technique I like very much, which I've come to call "The Old
Distill-and-Expand." When a guest finishes answering a question, I
sometimes try to summarize and clarify their answer back to them,
asking if I've got it right. The trick to make this more interesting is
to take this summary a step further, to extrapolate from it, to make a
guess about its implications and see how the guest responds. This
routinely gets me pretty compelling material.
Research indirectly by immersing yourself in the subject's world.
Reading the guest's book, watching their movie or listening to their
album is only step one. (And you'd be astonished how many interviewers
don't reach step one.) Use other books, other movies, other music and
the awesome power of the internet to get into and absorb the world
around the subject, the culture they call home. Check out their other
interviews. Look into their influences. Research people
around the guest — geographically, intellectually, spiritually — as if you were going to interview them as well.
Only ask questions you're genuinely curious to hear answered. It
so
comes through when an interviewer asks a question for no better reason
than that they assume it "should" be asked. If you don't actually care
about the answer to a question, if you're not actually excited to know
how the guest will respond, then for the love of YHWH, do
not ask it.
(Were I given to dopier names, I would possibly have called this point "
Curiosity, curiosity, curiosity," "
Keep it curious" or "
It's the curiosity, stupid!")
This speaks to a much greater divide that bears on every art form, every craft — probably every
pursuit.
Are you creating your work because you honestly find it cool, or
because you're laboring under the notion that "people" will like it?
This fumbly guesswork about the taste of some abstract audience has
produced humanity's stupidest, least valuable art. Ditch the
"people"-pleasing and make
what you like.
The ideal question is askable of no one else, by no one else. And I emphasize the word
ideal;
most questions won't fit these criteria. While it's theoretically a
trivial matter to ask your guest a question only he can answer — get
into the specifics of his book, say, or an unusual event in his life —
you'll find it's still done with shocking rarity, at least in the
mainstream media. Pose a question that could be asked of anyone, "How
did you get this idea?" being the most dishearteningly common, and you
might as well wave a red flag signaling to the guest that he's in the
hands of an idiot.
The "
by no one else" part is more
neglected, and thus more important. Though some will no doubt challenge
me, I think it separates the great interviewers from the mediocre.
Nearly every time I watch my favorite interviewers in action — your
Roses, your Thorns, your Silverblatts — I think, "Man, only
he would have asked that!" I sometimes even think, "Man, only he
could have asked that!", which is truly nxtlvl.
Upshot:
if you want to interview and you don't have a personality, get one. If
you want to interview and you're unwilling to expose your personality,
get over yourself. You'll ultimately find you have to...
Reveal your ignorance.
Hey, it beats the alternative. There's no shame in not knowing what
your guest is talking about; if you don't, chances are a lot of your
audience doesn't either. I rarely cringe so sourly as when I'm
listening to an interview and it becomes obvious that the host is
bluffing his was through something for which he neglected to prepare.
I'm not about non-preparation; by all means, prepare as much as
possible. But you can't know about everything in heaven and Earth.
Besides,
you're in this game to develop, aren't you? Nothing impedes learning,
improvement and evolution as much as pretending you already know, have
fully improved and are perfectly evolved. Let's not even get into the
embarrassment of realizing that you're a thousand steps up your wobbly
Jenga tower of half-truths, guesses and elisions with no safe way down
in sight.
Get to the human. And get past the boilerplate.
The boilerplate is your enemy. If you're talking to a media veteran,
someone who's been interviewed countless times before, they
will
have boilerplate. Behind this boilerplate is a fascinating human being,
so you'll need to get around it or punch straight through it to produce
so much as a reasonably interesting conversation. Your only tools are
your questions.
The
most effective weapon is surprise. Some interviewers interpret this as
an endorsement of "gotcha" questions, but man, few things are more
tiresome than "gotcha" questions. (Need I invoke the wan spectacle of
Terry Gross going on the attack when presented with a guest too far
outside her own ideological realm?) I mean more the sort of surprise
one feels when presented with an entirely different way to think about
something familiar. It's the wonderful surprise produced by framing and
approach, not the deadening surprise produced by the
j'accuse.
Whenever
possible, interface with your guest as a human being, with all the
complications that entails, rather than as a mere vehicle for ideas.
The danger here, of course, is that you might lose sight of the value
of ideas and turn into
StoryCorps. The trick, to the extent
that I've figured it out so far, is to conduct ideas-oriented
conversations on a human level. And not, you know, to make Eastern
Europeans weep in a bus.
You can't have a worthwhile conversation in seven minutes. If some suit insists you have to, take your skills elsewhere.